Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Russell Arben Fox's avatar

An excellent set of reflections, Noah; really a first-rate explorations of some of the various issues and puzzles at work in the concepts of liberalism and nationalism. I'd write more, but I have to run; instead, I'll just attach an FB comment I wrote literally on 20 minutes ago (great minds think alike, perhaps?):

"The "propositional" character of America's history and civic identity and political culture has ALWAYS been a dubious, contested, revised, argued one. Probably one of the sole connecting threads between all the "Old Right" figures Matt Cooper mentioned upthread is the big question marks--philosophical, environmental, historical, religious--they put beside the idea of America as a country founded on an idea. That notion mostly didn't exist--with important exceptions, Jefferson being a crucial one--in any kind of formal way until the Civil War, most certainly didn't exist (as Timothy Burke noted above) in the minds for a significant number--quite possibly a majority--of European immigrants who came to the colonies and then the new United States in the 18th and 19th centuries, would have been entirely incomprehensible to all except a tiny--and profoundly unrepresentative--number of the enslaved Africans who were brought to the U.S. throughout the history of slavery, and of course couldn't have even existed--at least not in the form we know of it--in the first place if there hadn't been an epidemiological and then later a literal near-genocide against the Indigenous inhabitants of North America, opening up the space for European settlement and thus their imagination of a "new nation." I say all of this a believer (to stick with Mormon references, a belief very much like Levi Peterson's belief in Jesus's promise of salvation in "A Christian by Yearning") IN America's aspirational identity. I'm fully aware, as I wrote in the original post, that separating ethnic nationalism from civic nationalism is probably a fool's errand; still, I think the immense--however limited and debatable!--civilizational achievement that is liberal equality makes it worth continuing to try to find ways to instantiate it in the social order. And that, of course, involves strongly condemning and arguing as thoughtfully as possible against the illiberal and (I think) unChristian folks who insist Lincoln was wrong, full stop, and can just be dismissed, far too many of which have been put into positions of power and influence thanks to the paranoid, authoritarian cult that has taken over the Republican party."

Expand full comment
These fragments's avatar

This is a really interesting and provocative reflection. I have two thoughts, both of which focus on the practical aspects of liberalism—in particular, American liberalism—and neither of which are especially original.

First, I wonder if liberalism is, at its core, a compensatory political system with a tragic fate. Perhaps what ultimately legitimates liberalism is not its ability to produce wealth, its conceptual framework, or its ideals, but rather its unique pragmatic power: compared to other political systems, liberalism does a better job of helping people live with the small and large differences we inevitably attach to and define ourselves by, without descending into war with one another. If this Hobbesian insight is right, perhaps the legitimacy of liberal systems will inevitably weaken and be threatened by illiberal ones—especially those with a more intuitive appeal—whenever people forget the need for liberalism and the norms and processes it requires, or when they mistake its legitimacy for the abstract ideals it promotes. When that happens, the only thing that can re-legitimate liberalism is tragedy: people must be reminded of, and sometimes directly experience, the suffering that illiberal systems produce.

And second, what I like about this essay is that it addresses what makes American liberalism distinct. Along the same line, I think we need to consider two interrelated features of American liberalism that most discussions ignore. First, its legitimacy has drawn on—and may depend on—its mixture with republican practices. In this sense, an essential part of what has legitimated American liberalism may be the civic feeling that American republicanism inspires. Second, those republican features have historically been stronger at the state and local levels than at the federal or national level. (Having spent much of my professional life working in and around state and local government and politics, I’m always struck by how often discussions of American liberalism either ignore states altogether or conflate them with the federal government. States are no longer what they once were, no doubt—but there is still a great deal of small-r republicanism coursing through their governments and political cultures. This is one of the things that makes Trump’s unilateral use of the military in Ameican’s cities so corrosive—in the sense that it directly attacks state power—as well as potentially revealing—in the sense of reaction it provokes.)

Expand full comment
8 more comments...

No posts